RE: draft-bonica-tunneltrace-02

[Shahram Davari <Shahram_Davari@pmc-sierra.com>]

Tom,

I think instead of debating whether Y.1711 is better than LSP-ping/GTTP or vice versa, it would be more constructive to identify and document the applicability of each proposal for various tunneling applications.

For this particular draft my suggestion at this stage is that the Bonica's requirement draft be revised to:

1) Add text (or at least a place holder) for additional security issues raised on the list.
2) Add backward compatibility, simplicity and scalability as requirements.
3) Remove the protocol requirements section, since any requirement here will be viewed as a reverse engineering of some solution.
 
Then any offered solution should have text to show to what extent they fulfill the requirements, and what is their applicability and restrictions.

-Shahram 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shahram Davari 
> Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 1:23 PM
> To: 'Thomas D. Nadeau'
> Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: RE: draft-bonica-tunneltrace-02 
> 
> 
> Tom,
> 
> I see that you haven't answered all my questions, but I trust 
> that you will.
> Please see my comments in-line.
> 
> -Shahram
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas D. Nadeau [mailto:tnadeau@cisco.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 12:57 PM
> > To: Shahram Davari
> > Cc: ccamp@ops.ietf.org
> > Subject: RE: draft-bonica-tunneltrace-02 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > > I am hearing that people want to
> > > > use simpler approaches, even if they are not 
> > architecturally pure. Some 
> > > of these
> > > > approaches that are available today and won't double the cost
> > > >of a device because the OAM
> > > > functions are built on top of existing software, and
> > > > thus don't require an army of software and  hardware 
> > developers to realize.
> > >
> > >Interesting. So you actually beleive that MPLS OAM doubles 
> > the cost of 
> > >device!!!
> > 
> >          No. Don't misinterpret what I am saying. I think 
> > that YOUR approach
> > will significantly increase the cost of a device.
> 
> Ignoring your 2X price increase comment, why do you think there will
> be a significant increase in the cost of a device? 
> implementing a simple CV flow
> shouldn't be that expensive.
> 
>   There are 
> > other approaches
> > that leverage existing technologies that are already 
> > implemented. I think
> > the cost increase for these approaches is marginal in comparison.
> > 
> > > >          I do not think that Y.1711 presents good solutions
> > > > to the problem of
> > > > OAM.
> > >
> > >Why? The approach taken in Y.1711 is not new, it has been 
> around for
> > >many many years in other technologies and has proven to work fine.
> > 
> >          You are basically trying to meld ATM OAM technology
> > onto MPLS, which isn't an easy thing to do nor is it a good 
> fit, IMHO.
> 
> I think Y.1711 shows that it is easy to do, and actually fits well.
> What is the difference between ATM, FR, or any CO technology 
> and MPLS, and what
> makes the basic OAM technique used by those technologies a 
> bad fit for MPLS?
> 
> > 
> > > > I don't think I am out in left field on this one either.
> > > > So again, I propose that we work on practical solutions 
> > to the problem 
> > > of OAM
> > > > for MPLS.
> > >
> > >What do you mean by practical solution?
> > 
> >          A solution to that can be implemented in one's 
> > lifetime 
> 
> Again interesting comments. I read this as " Y.1711 is not 
> implementable in
> one's life time".!!!!!!!!
> 
> >and will not
> > significantly increase the cost of the device on which it is 
> > implemented.
> 
> You keep pointing to the significant cost. Could you please 
> clearly identify which parts of the MPLS OAM has significant 
> cost to implement compared to other approaches that you mentioned?
> 
> > Such solutions generally do not require a complete re-design
> > of all hardware that is deployed in the world and that 
> generally seem
> > to work pretty well at this point.
> 
> 1) MPLS OAM could be easily implemented in software.
> 2) If one chooses to implement some part of it in hardware, 
> then off course new hardware is needed.
> 
> 
> > 
> >          --Tom
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----------
> > Mathematics is the supreme nostalgia of our time. 
> > 
>