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Re: comments on draft-shiba-ccamp-gmpls-lambda-labels-00.txt



sidney - short note to clarify the comparison with SONET/SDH

Shiba, Sidney wrote:
John,

Comments inline:


-----Original Message-----
From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 9:36 AM
To: Shiba, Sidney; dpapadimitriou@psg.com
Cc: Adrian Farrel; richard.rabbat@us.fujitsu.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: comments on draft-shiba-ccamp-gmpls-lambda-labels-00.txt


Sidney,

But there's nothing in your picture that requires an absolute end-end
global wavelength.  The existing GMPLS solution with relative
wavelengths of local significance should work just fine.


[Sidney] Sorry for the missing info. The optical switch is an all optical
switch (i.e., no OEO is necessary). The wavelength continuity constraint
indicates which wavelength (nominal value) all the optical switches traversed by the lightpath needs to cross-connect.


As I said in my previous note, your method precludes combining two or more parallel WDM links into a single TE link.

[Sidney] Note the Label is complemented by the interface id of the link.

I think this is the same approach used for parallel SONET OCn datalinks
where the label identifies a time-slot and interface id identifies the
datalink chosen for the connection.

in RFC3946 the label does not include the interface id; the latter is part of the IF_ID RSVP_HOP TLV

if you introduce a spectral wavelength label you will not be able anymore to correlate into the same (unbundled) link two data links having the same nominal wavelength;

note: introducing "spectral label" would introduce a similar issue present in SDH/SONET where you can not correlate two or more "data links" in the same (unbundled) TE link with a resulting overlapping set of timeslots; however, the major difference compared with wavelength switching is that in SONET/SDH you need to construct very particular configurations for reaching this kind of restriction; also there is no real operational issue since so far with this simply because each timeslot in a given section is spatially equivalent and has identical TE properties; the situation is completely different in a wavelength switched environment

Thanks,

John


-----Original Message-----
From: Shiba, Sidney [mailto:sidney.shiba@us.fujitsu.com]
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:25 AM
To: Drake, John E; dpapadimitriou@psg.com
Cc: Adrian Farrel; richard.rabbat@us.fujitsu.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: comments on

draft-shiba-ccamp-gmpls-lambda-labels-00.txt

Hi John,

Optical switches based on Wavelength Selective Switch (WSS)

technology

requires the wavelength information for switching. This

technology is
NOT

wavelength agnostic.

              |                      |
              | wdm                  | wdm
              |2                     |2
          ---------              ---------
   wdm  1| optical |3   wdm    1| optical |3  wdm
 --------| switch  |------------| switch  |---------
         |  (WSS)  |            |  (WSS)  |
          ---------              ---------
              |4                     |4
              | wdm                  | wdm
              |                      |

Note that the figure above shows an example of two optical switches
interconnect
by a single WDM fiber. In this example, each optical switch can be

connect

to 4
other optical switches.

As you can see, the optical ports information do not provide enough
information
for wavelength switching.

Hope that clarifies the application requirement.

Thanks,

Sidney


-----Original Message-----
From: Drake, John E [mailto:John.E.Drake2@boeing.com]
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 5:33 PM
To: dpapadimitriou@psg.com; Shiba, Sidney
Cc: Adrian Farrel; richard.rabbat@us.fujitsu.com;

ccamp@ops.ietf.org

Subject: RE: comments on

draft-shiba-ccamp-gmpls-lambda-labels-00.txt


Hi,

Below is the text of an e-mail is sent to the

Ethernet/GMPLS mailing

list.

Upon reflection I am not sure using a real wavelength value makes

much

sense.  Between a pair of adjacent nodes, there may be
multiple pairs of
switch ports in the same TE link that support a given

frequency.  If
a

real wavelength value is used, how do the two nodes agree on
which pair
of switch ports to use?

Furthermore, the amount of configuration is the same - you
still need to
configure the wavelength of each switch port.

Thanks,

John
==============================================================
==========
====
Adrian,

In the transparent photonic lambda switch case, the

labels also have

only local significance.  When an LSP is established, the input

ports,

as identified with local labels, are cross-connected to the output
ports, as identified with local labels.

There is just extra configuration to identify, using

strictly local

identifiers, the wavelength associated with the all of

the switch's

ports, and an additional CAC requirement that the

wavelengths of the

input and output ports are the same.

Thanks,

John



-----Original Message-----
From: dimitri papadimitriou [mailto:dpapadimitriou@psg.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 10:03 AM
To: Shiba, Sidney
Cc: dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel.be; Adrian Farrel;
richard.rabbat@us.fujitsu.com; ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: comments on

draft-shiba-ccamp-gmpls-lambda-labels-00.txt

shiba - see inline for some additional hints:


Shiba, Sidney wrote:


Adrian, Dimitri,

Thanks for reviewing these I-D.

Wavelength continuity constraint does require the use of

semanticful

label whether it is spectral or index.

=> see my reply to adrian on this specific point


I agree with Dimitri that the
wavelength indexing requires document updating each

time a new

spectrum is introduced.

=> indeed and in addition it requires updating the already
signaled path


The use of spectral label provides self maintainance, i.e.,
no need to update any document and the use of the

nominal value

provides a common semantic ground.

=> what do you mean by self-maintenance - would you provide a
bit more detail

[Sidney]What I've meant here was that it was not necessary to
update any document when new wavelengths are

inventoried. In the

case of indexing approach, it would require the

wavelength indexing

document to be updated with implementation impacts.

In the case, the nominal value is used, there is no need for
documentation update.

ok - what you mean here is that you are going to make use of the

already

defined C-Type 2 - what about the specific encoding of the

value space
?

=> now i have a more specific question before being light-up
how do you know the frequency that you can support ?

[Sidney] Some new technologies integrate optical switch and

mux/demux

capabilities, which allows the equipment to know the

spectrum it

supports.

indeed - but the question is what does happen if the

"detected" values

(during initialization) do not match the nominal values ? you

don't

initialize then ?


if these differ from the nominal values how are you going to

deal

with

these

discrepancies ?

[Sidney] These new technologies uses the nominal value as

reference.
We

can say

that a lightpath wavelength is identified by its

nominal value.
If

the

equipment

is drifting from this nominal value, it is considered as

a failure.

ok - but if the deviation is such you have overlap - how the

control

plane is going to be able to detect such failure ?


this said i am not necessarily sure that having to

maintain the data

plane

specifics as part of the control plane is really helping
operations (is this method not just duplicating complexity ?)

[Sidney] The wavelength is WDM specific as much as the SUKLM

label

encoding

is for SONET. The wavelegth/frequency nominal value is used to

identify

the

facilities to cross-connect.

there is an equivalence but there is also a major

difference, the

structure is invariant independently of the state of the

network, with

spectral value space you may have labels that become unavailable

due

to

non-local usage of wavelength in the network

hence, there is also no real coupling to the data plane

more than

knowing the type of interface and some generic capabilities


I'm not sure if the draft needs to be updated before the
face-to-face meeting or after all comments are collected.

Please

advise.

=> suggest to keep discussion on - document update can be
performed at a later stage

thanks,
- dimitri.


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org

[mailto:owner-ccamp@ops.ietf.org]On

Behalf Of Adrian Farrel
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2005 4:45 AM
To: dpapadimitriou@psg.com;

dimitri.papadimitriou@alcatel.be;

ccamp@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: comments on

draft-shiba-ccamp-gmpls-lambda-labels-00.txt


Dimitri,

Thanks for your work reviewing these recent I-Ds. It is
really valuable
and I'd welcome other people doing similar reviews.




there is a specific point to be clarified in this document:

semanticless vs semanticful label (even here there is a

distinction

between spectral vs indexes i.e. using the

wavelength index)

domain-wide vs link local significant label

Without being too picky, I think all labels are semanticful
otherwise, we
would not know what resource they refered to.

So the point reduces to whether the scope of the semantics
are link-local
or wider.




so, the comparison from this perspective with TDM labels is

difficult to



parse, the latter is semanticful but link local

now, i don't specifically see what has changed the

late 90's,

early

y2k's, to have a change in the wavelength label definition;

This is the question I would like to get to the

bottom of. In

other words:
do we need this function?

It seems to me that the question being asked is this:

If I want to compute a path that has some form of

wavelength

constraints, what information do I need access to?

Another question might be:

If I want to signal a path with wavelength

constraints what

information do I need to include in the signaling message?


I'd suggest that when we started on GMPLS, we were

enthusiastic about


transparent optical networks, but we were not properly
focusing wavelength
constraints because lambda-switching PXCs didn't take off.
Therefore we
didn't examine the requirements for wavelength

constraints in

routing and
signaling. The authors of this I-D are claiming new hardware
requirements
for the same function.




there are
several solution possible

- absolute values: the freq. of the wavelength:

difficult to

adopt

because referenced values are nominal and knowing all

interactions

between wavelengths this knowledge is at the end of little

practical


usage; (introduces implicit ordering)

- indexed values: the # of the wavelength: it does not

provide for a


future proof label space for inst. in case new frequencies

are inserted



in the grid (introduces explicit ordering)

- diff. values e.g. freq spacing starting from a reference

value: pauses



the question of the reference value and does

suffer from the

former

issue (introduces implicit ordering)

- the solution available today - cumbersome in some

control plane

operations (e.g. label set translation) and not easy to

troubleshoot but



independent of any physical consideration (spectral), scale

to

any

number of wavelength per fiber, does not introduce any

ordering, the


most flexible (since allowing each system to maintain its

specific

control operations) and the less constraining since

maintaining

the

control plane operations independent of any data plane

specifics


<http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shiba-ccamp-gmpls-l

ambda-labels
-00.txt>

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