Re: Layer 2 and "idn identities" (was: Re: [idn] what are the IDN identifiers?)

["Bruce Thomson" <bthomson@fm-net.ne.jp>]

Written by liana Ye

> I sincerely feel, you don't know what you are talking about.
> And you don't understand what is going on with CJK 
> users.  I don't even know how to start to discuss with 
> you about your above comments.  May be after I have a 
> good night of sleep, I can come up with new ideas.

Sounds like you could use some sleep all right. Try not to
immediately question the credentials of those who don't
rush to accept your ideas.

I am belatedly trying to come up to speed on SC/TC, and
I see that it does have a lot of merit. But I think that the
notion of "equivalent characters" is really trying to take
this game too far. There are two words ways to write "egg"
in Japanese, pronounced the same, but one is written
with two characters, and one with only one character. Are
going to call these words "equivalent"? Sounds like you
would like to do that, if I understand your concept.

Bringing the English/French stuff in is a useless analogy too,
which just slows the conversation down. Case folding
is just not the same as SC/TC, and certainly not the
same as "equivalent characters". The more thoughtful
among us would like to be convinced of your arguments
on their merits, and not on the basis of analogies.

It will be a big step for me to agree with SC/TC, but I
may well do it. You may remember that originally I
was totally opposed to nameprep altogether.

If you are concerned about my credentials vis-a-vis
the CJK issues, I admit that I know very little about
China, but I am probably the wg's most vocal (if
admittedly not the most knowledgeable) person on the
subject of Japanese. I have lived in Japan 23 years, and all
my everyday communications with the exception of
this list are in Japanese. I personally wrote the first
Japanese word processor software for a laptop computer
back in 1984, and run an ICANN registrar in Japan.
Perhaps I can give you SOME insights into the
culture of language here, more than you might get
from elsewhere.

Bruce

> 
> On Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:49:23 +0900 "Bruce Thomson" <bthomson@fm-net.ne.jp>
> writes:
> > Written by liana Ye:
> > 
> > > 
> > > And Chinese TC/SC example:
> > > <wind> has four code points in Chinese:
> > > TC, SC, TC radical, SC radical.
> > > 
> > > I believe there are other code points of <wind>  have 
> > > been allowed in UCS.  Isn't  it a time to use the 
> > > "equivalent character set" term? Or may we use 
> > > "equivalent codepoints" to stay away from the lanugage
> > > connotation?
> > > 
> > 
> > So you would like these four code points to be normalized and
> > indistinguishable? There must be a huge cultural difference
> > between Japan and China in their feelings about the language.
> 
> Bruce:
> 
> Using your arguement above:
> 
> 0048; 0068; Case map
> 
> 210B; 0068; Additional folding
> 210C; 0068; Additional folding
> 210D; 0068; Additional folding
> 
> 1D407; 0068; Additional folding
> 1D43B; 0068; Additional folding
> 1D46F; 0068; Additional folding
> 1D4D7; 0068; Additional folding
> 1D573; 0068; Additional folding
> 
> So you would like these nine code points to be normalized and
> indistinguishable? There must be a huge cultural difference
> between English and French in their feelings about the language.
> 
> > 
> > In Japan, there are two characters for "river" (sorry, I am
> > not going to look up the code points.) But nobody here
> > in Japan would see the logic of treating them as identical.
> > They are different, and these differences between characters
> > are part of the rich culture of the nation.
> > 
> > To be sure, there are some characters that are so old that
> > while they are still used in names (such as in my own home address),
> > they could be normalized into their modern equivalents without
> > complaint. But who is going to sort all this out in a reasonable
> > timeframe?
> > 
> > The CJK unification makes it even worse, of course, as decisions
> > made for China affect other countries.
> > 
> > What is the down side of treating these characters as different,
> > anyway? Worst case, a company with "wind" in its name might
> > have to register two or even four variations of the name.
> > Works for me.
> > 
> > Bruce
> > 
> 
> I sincerely feel, you don't know what you are talking about.
> And you don't understand what is going on with CJK 
> users.  I don't even know how to start to discuss with 
> you about your above comments.  May be after I have a 
> good night of sleep, I can come up with new ideas.
> 
> Liana
> 
> 
>