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Agenda and Package for January 9, 2003 Telechat
- To: iesg@ietf.org
- Subject: Agenda and Package for January 9, 2003 Telechat
- From: Jacqueline Hargest <jhargest@ietf.org>
- Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 17:07:25 -0500
INTERNET ENGINEERING STEERING GROUP (IESG)
Agenda for the January 9, 2003 IESG Teleconference
1. Administrivia
o Roll Call
o Bash the Agenda
o Approval of the Minutes
- December 27, 2002
o Review of Action Items
OUTSTANDING TASKS
Last updated: January 3, 2002
o <draft-dfncis-netnews-admin-sys-04.txt> in Expert Review; Ned to
evaluate.
DONE o Thomas Narten to send text to Scott Bradner re: kre's ipv6 appeal.
Scott to incorporate.
IP o Allison to review draft-agrawal-sip-h323-interworking-reqs
and send decision to IESG. If OK, Steve/Secretariat to announce.
IP o Ned to write MIME and MEDIA TYPES Roadmap document
IP o Jeff to compare and contrast identity vs. identifier
IP o Erik to document process of how the IESG goes about asking
architectural questions of the IAB
IP o Thomas to write (or cause to be written) a draft on "how to
get to Draft".
IP o Patrik to take action on elevating RFC2279 to Standard.
IP o Thomas to contact Cablelabs to discuss formal relationship
with IAB
DONE o Thomas to send in suggestions for Extensions Statement.
Scott to incorporate
o Patrik to re-evaluate state of draft-irtf-idrm-handle-system (Informational)
o Patrik to re-evaluate state of draft-jaffer-metric-interchange-format (None)
o Erik to re-evaluate state of draft-jl-pcdp (Informational)
DONE o Steve B. to re-evaluate state of draft-khan-gaur-secure-mpeg-syntax (Request)
IP o Allison to re-evaluate state of draft-malis-sonet-ces-mpls (Request)
o Patrik to re-evaluate state of draft-new-apex-server (Informational)
IP o Ned to re-evaluate state of draft-tegen-smqp (Informational)
IP o Ned to re-evaluate state of draft-tiwari-appl-wxxx-forms (Informational)
DONE o Allison and Thomas to draft note for draft-stoica-diffserv-dps
2. Protocol Actions
o A Presence Event Package for the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)
(Proposed Standard)
<draft-ietf-simple-presence-09.txt>
Token: Faltstrom, Patrik
Note: Responsible: Patrik
o An Extensible Markup Language (XML) Based Format for Watcher
Information (Proposed Standard)
<draft-ietf-simple-winfo-format-03.txt>
o A Watcher Information Event Template-Package for the Session
Initiation Protocol (SIP) (Proposed Standard)
<draft-ietf-simple-winfo-package-04.txt>
o RTP Payload Format for SMPTE 292M Video (Proposed Standard)
<draft-ietf-avt-smpte292-video-08.txt>
Token: Bradner, Scott
3. Working Group Submissions
o IS-IS extensions for Traffic Engineering (Informational)
<draft-ietf-isis-traffic-04.txt>
Token: Zinin, Alex
Note: Responsible: Author
o Requirements for Resource Priority Mechanisms for the Session
Initiation Protocol (Informational)
<draft-ietf-ieprep-sip-reqs-03.txt>
Token: Mankin, Allison
Note: This needs an RFC Editor note adding text that says that
some requirements may be in conflict with each other, e.g.
REQ-17 vs. SEC-8 and SEC-9. The document is input to the
SIPPING WG, but it is important for it to be concluded by IESG
review now, to close down further iterations on it by the ieprep
WG, since there was a reasonable degree of consensus on it.
REQ-4 and REQ-5 appear to handwave about the very difficult
problem of mismatch between domains: I am asking the author
and chairs if the expectation is an IANA registry that SIPPING
will describe (this is a question for REQ-7 too).
4. Individual via RFC Editor
o LDP and RSVP Extensions for Optical UNI Signaling (Informational)
<draft-bala-uni-ldp-rsvp-extensions-03.txt>
Token: Bradner, Scott
o Basic MGCP Packages (Informational)
<draft-foster-mgcp-basic-packages-09.txt>
Token: Bradner, Scott
5. Proposed Working Groups
o License to Enhance Messaging Oriented Network Access for Diverse
Endpoints
Token: Ned
Note: New title: Enhancements to Internet email to support
diverse service environments (lemonade), and updated charter
6. Working Group News We Can Use
7. IAB News we can use
8. Management Issues
o Revised IDR (Inter-Domain Routing) Charter
o Processing of liaison statements
o Recording of action items
DRAFT * DRAFT * DRAFT * DRAFT * DRAFT * DRAFT * DRAFT *
INTERNET ENGINEERING STEERING GROUP (IESG)
December 27, 2002
Reported by: Jacqueline Hargest, IETF Assistant Director
ATTENDEES
---------
Alvestrand, Harald / Cisco
Austein, Rob / IAB Liaison
Bellovin, Steve / AT&T Labs
Bradner, Scott / Harvard
Bush, Randy / IIJ
Cotton, Michelle / ICANN
Faltstrom, Patrik / Cisco
Fenner, Bill / AT&T
Freed, Ned / Innosoft
Hargest, Jacqueline / IETF
Narten, Thomas / IBM
Schiller, Jeff / MIT
Wijnen, Bert / Lucent
Zinin, Alex / Alcatel
REGRETS
-------
Coya, Steve / IETF
Daigle, Leslie / Verisign (IAB)
Mankin, Allison / Bell Labs/Lucent
Nordmark, Erik / Sun
Reynolds, Joyce K. / ISI (RFC Editor)
Minutes
-------
1. The minutes of the December 12 Teleconference were approved.
Secretariat to place in public archives.
2. Prior to the December 27 teleconference, the following
document was APPROVED:
o 'STUN - Simple Traversal of UDP Through Network Address Translators'
(Proposed Standard) <draft-ietf-midcom-stun-05.txt>
3. Protocol Action APPROVED:
The IESG approved publication of 'RTP Payload Format for Enhanced
Variable Rate Codecs (EVRC) and Selectable Mode Vocoders SMV'
<draft-ietf-avt-evrc-smv-03.txt> as a Proposed Standard. Secretariat
to send announcement.
4. Working Group Documents APPROVED:
The IESG had no problem with the publication of the following
document 'Impairments And Other Constraints On Optical Layer Routing'
<draft-ietf-ipo-impairments-04.txt> as an Informational RFC.
Secretariat to convey to RFC Editor.
The IESG had no problem with the publication of the following document
'Middlebox Communications (MIDCOM) Protocol Evaluation'
<draft-ietf-midcom-protocol-eval-06.txt> as an Informational RFC.
Secretariat to convey to RFC Editor.
5. Working Group Documents TENTATIVELY APPROVED:
The IESG tentatively approved publication of 'Netlink as an IP Services
Protocol' <draft-ietf-forces-netlink-04.txt> as an Informational RFC.
Once Alex clears Thomas's objections concerning the title and abstract,
Secretariat will announce.
The IESG tentatively approved publication of 'Framework for Policy
Usage Feedback for Common Open Policy Service with Policy Provisioning
(COPS-PR)' <draft-ietf-rap-feedback-frwk-04.txt> as an Informational
RFC. Bert will cover Steve's nit with an RFC Editor Note. If ok,
Secretariat to send announcement.
6. Document Actions APPROVED:
The IESG has approved the Internet-Draft 'H.323 URL Scheme
Registration with IANA' <draft-levin-iptel-h323-url-scheme-05.txt>
as an Informational RFC. Secretariat to send announcement.
The IESG has approved the Internet-Draft 'Basic Socket Interface
Extensions for IPv6' <draft-ietf-ipngwg-rfc2553bis-10.txt> as an
Informational RFC. Secretariat to send announcement.
7. Protocol Actions DEFERRED:
o Intrusion Detection Message Exchange Format Data Model and
Extensible Markup Language (XML) Document Type Definition
(Proposed Standard)
<draft-ietf-idwg-idmef-xml-09.txt>
o 'iSCSI' (Proposed) <draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-19.txt>
o 'Bootstrapping Clients using the iSCSI Protocol' (Proposed)
<draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-boot-08.txt>
o 'iSCSI Naming and Discovery' (Informational)
<draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-name-disc-08.txt>
Note: Randy Bush moved to separate the Boostrapping document
(draft-ietf-ips-iscsi-boot) from the other two. The first two documents
will pass if Steve Bellovin and Allison Mankin resolve Bellovin's
issues. Steve will then notify the Secretariat to update his position
to "no-ob". The third document will be held for Allison and Randy to
clean up.
8. Document Actions TENTATIVELY APPROVED:
o 'CR-LDP Extensions for ASON' (Informational)
<draft-aboulmagd-ccamp-crldp-ason-ext-02.txt>
Note: Michelle and Bert will check assignments issues. If ok,
Secretariat will announce.
9. The following documents are still under DISCUSSION:
o 'Session Initiation Protocol Basic Call Flow Examples' (BCP)
<draft-ietf-sipping-basic-call-flows-01.txt>
o 'DHCP Option for CableLabs Client Configuration' (Proposed)
<draft-ietf-dhc-packetcable-04.txt>
o 'Signalling of Modem-On-Hold status in Layer 2 Tunneling Protocol
(L2TP)' (Proposed)
<draft-ietf-l2tpext-v92-moh-03.txt>
Note: Scott will send a message with his desired changes, which Thomas
will take to the author(s).
o 'Known CN Request-Routing Mechanisms' (Informational)
<draft-ietf-cdi-known-request-routing-02.txt>
Note: Randy Bush registered a substantial issue.
o 'An Architecture for Open Pluggable Edge Services (OPES)'
(Informational)
<draft-ietf-opes-architecture-04.txt>
o 'Requirements for OPES Callout Protocols' (Informational)
<draft-ietf-opes-protocol-reqs-03.txt>
Note: Ned will draft a note to the WG re: security concerns for both of
these documents, and run it by the IESG.
o 'Basic MGCP Packages' (Informational)
<draft-foster-mgcp-basic-packages-09.txt>
Note: Allison has some concerns and was not on the call to discuss.
10. Working Group Action:
o License to Enhance Messaging Oriented Network Access for
Diverse Endpoints (LEMONADE)
Token: Ned
Note: Remaining issue concerning the charter. Allison needs to give
input. Bill recommended a wording change because of "unified
messaging"; and the acronym doesn't indicate what they do. Ned to
send new version of charter; Secretariat to post and send
announcement to new-work.
11. NEW Action Items:
o Harald will send final text for kre appeal, to be sent to kre
and ietf-announce, and to be posted on appeals web page
o Bill and Jacqueline to work out a system to ensure proper
assignment of individual submissions
12. Outstanding Action Items:
o <draft-dfncis-netnews-admin-sys-04.txt> in Expert Review; Ned to
evaluate.
DONE o Thomas Narten to send text to Scott Bradner re: kre's ipv6 appeal.
Scott to incorporate.
IP o Allison to review draft-agrawal-sip-h323-interworking-reqs
and send decision to IESG. If OK, Steve/Secretariat to announce.
IP o Ned to write MIME and MEDIA TYPES Roadmap document
IP o Jeff to compare and contrast identity vs. identifier
IP o Erik to document process of how the IESG goes about asking
architectural questions of the IAB
IP o Thomas to write (or cause to be written) a draft on "how to
get to Draft".
IP o Patrik to take action on elevating RFC2279 to Standard.
IP o Thomas to contact Cablelabs to discuss formal relationship
with IAB
DONE o Thomas to send in suggestions for Extensions Statement.
Scott to incorporate
o Patrik to re-evaluate state of draft-irtf-idrm-handle-system (Informational)
o Patrik to re-evaluate state of draft-jaffer-metric-interchange-format (None)
o Erik to re-evaluate state of draft-jl-pcdp (Informational)
DONE o Steve B. to re-evaluate state of draft-khan-gaur-secure-mpeg-syntax (Request)
IP o Allison to re-evaluate state of draft-malis-sonet-ces-mpls (Request)
o Patrik to re-evaluate state of draft-new-apex-server (Informational)
IP o Ned to re-evaluate state of draft-tegen-smqp (Informational)
IP o Ned to re-evaluate state of draft-tiwari-appl-wxxx-forms (Informational)
DONE o Allison and Thomas to draft note for draft-stoica-diffserv-dps
To: Internet Engineering Steering Group <iesg@ietf.org>
From: IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Reply-To: IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: Evaluation: draft-ietf-simple-winfo-package - A Session
Initiation Protocol (SIP)Event Template-Package for Watcher
Information to Proposed Standard
--------
Last Call to expire on: 2002-10-3
Please return the full line with your position.
Yes No-Objection Discuss * Abstain
Harald Alvestrand [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Steve Bellovin [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Scott Bradner [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Randy Bush [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Patrik Faltstrom [ X ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Bill Fenner [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Ned Freed [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Allison Mankin [ X ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Thomas Narten [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Erik Nordmark [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Jeff Schiller [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Bert Wijnen [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Alex Zinin [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
2/3 (9) Yes or No-Objection opinions needed to pass.
* Indicate reason if 'Discuss'.
^L
To: IETF-Announce:;
Dcc: *******
Cc: RFC Editor <rfc-editor@isi.edu>,
Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>, simple@mailman.dynamicsoft.com
From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: Protocol Action: A Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)Event
Template-Package for Watcher Information to Proposed Standard
-------------
The IESG has approved the Internet-Drafts 'A Presence Event Package for
the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)' <draft-ietf-simple-presence-09.txt>,
'A Session Initiation Protocol (SIP) Event Template-Package for Watcher
Information' <draft-ietf-simple-winfo-package-04.txt> and 'An Extensible
Markup Language (XML) Based Format for Watcher Information'
<draft-ietf-simple-winfo-format-03.txt> as Proposed Standards.
These documents are products of the SIP for Instant Messaging and
Presence Leveraging Extensions Working Group. The IESG contact persons
are Ned Freed and Patrik Faltstrom.
Technical Summary
The main document describes the usage of the Session Initiation
Protocol (SIP) for subscriptions and notifications of presence.
Subscriptions and notifications of presence are supported by defining
an event package within the general SIP event notification framework.
The supporting documents define the watcher information
template-package, and an XML document format for the state of watchers
on a resource.
Working Group Summary
There was consensus for these documents in the working group.
Protocol Quality
The documents were reviewed for the IESG by Patrik Faltstrom and
Allison Mankin.
To: Internet Engineering Steering Group <iesg@ietf.org>
From: IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Reply-To: IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: Evaluation: draft-ietf-avt-smpte292-video - RTP Payload Format
for SMPTE 292M Video to Proposed Standard
--------
Last Call to expire on: 2002-12-31
Please return the full line with your position.
Yes No-Objection Discuss * Abstain
Harald Alvestrand [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Steve Bellovin [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Scott Bradner [ X ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Randy Bush [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Patrik Faltstrom [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Bill Fenner [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Ned Freed [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Allison Mankin [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Thomas Narten [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Erik Nordmark [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Jeff Schiller [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Bert Wijnen [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
Alex Zinin [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ]
2/3 (9) Yes or No-Objection opinions needed to pass.
* Indicate reason if 'Discuss'.
^L
To: IETF-Announce:;
Dcc: *******
Cc: RFC Editor <rfc-editor@isi.edu>,
Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.org>, avt@ietf.org
From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Subject: Protocol Action: RTP Payload Format for SMPTE 292M Video to
Proposed Standard
-------------
The IESG has approved the Internet-Draft 'RTP Payload Format for SMPTE
292M Video' <draft-ietf-avt-smpte292-video-08.txt> as a Proposed
Standard. This document is the product of the Audio/Video Transport
Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Scott Bradner and Allison
Mankin.
Technical Summary
This document specifies a RTP payload format for encapsulating
uncompressed High Definition Television (HDTV) as defined by the
Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE) standard,
SMPTE 292M. SMPTE is the main standardizing body in the motion imaging
industry and the SMPTE 292M standard defines a bit-serial digital
interface for local area HDTV transport and defines a universal medium
of interchange for uncompressed High Definition Television (HDTV)
between various types of video equipment (cameras, encoders, VTRs,
etc.). SMPTE 292M stipulates that the source data be in 10 bit words
and the total data rate be either 1.485 Gbps or 1.485/1.001 Gbps.
The use of a dedicated serial interconnect is appropriate in a studio
environment, but it is desirable to leverage the widespread
availability of high bandwidth IP connectivity to allow efficient wide
area delivery of area delivery of SMPTE 292M format content. This memo
defines a way to do so.
Working Group Summary
The AVT working group supported publication of this document on the
standards track.
Protocol Quality
This document was reviewed for the IESG by Scott Bradner.
Enhancements to Internet email to support diverse service environments
(lemonade)
Proposed Charter
================
Lemonade is tasked to provide a set of enhancements and profiles of
Internet email submission, transport, and retrieval protocols to
facilitate operation in environments which use Internet-based
technologies but which have link characteristics, device
characteristics, or service environments that are significantly
different from those common on the Internet. A primary goal of this
work is to ensure that those profiles and enhancements continue to
interoperate with the existing Internet email protocols in use on the
Internet, so that these environments and more traditional Internet
users have access to a seamless service.
Lemonade's work is at the crossroads of a body of work related to
Internet messaging, in particular work done by the VPIM, FAX, IMAPEXT
and other IETF working groups. Given the potentially broad scope of
activities this group could engage in, the group will focus
specifically on the following work items:
0. An informational RFC will be produced on LEMONADE requirements.
1. Enhance the existing IMAP4 message retrieval protocol to
satisfy the requirements for streaming playback of multimedia
content.
2. Enhance the exsiting IMAP4 message retrieval protocol to
facilitate its use with devices that have limited capabilities
such as mobile endpoints. The existing standards-track CONNEG
framework will be used if content negotiation capabilities are
needed.
3. Create a message notification protocol for the specific purpose
of servers reporting message status information to other
servers.
4. Create a specification describing the use of Internet message
services in environments where message delivery may take place
using either Internet protocols or through an MMS server using
WAP to communicate with the receiving user agent.
Any protocols defined by this working group will include appopriate
security mechanisms, including authentication, privacy, and access
control. Mandatory-to-implement security mechanisms will be specified
as needed in order to guarantee secure protocol interoperability.
The transport area will be consulted to deal with any transport-related
issues that arise, especially in regards to items 1-4 above.
The working group is aware of several related activities in other
groups:
- 3GPP TSG T WG2 SWG3 Messaging <http://www.3gpp.org/TB/T/T2/T2.htm>
- W3C Mulitmodal interaction Activity <http://www.w3.org/2002/mmi/>
- Open Mobile Alliance <http://www.openmobilealliance.org/>
- 3GPP2 TSG-P <http://3gpp2.org/Public_html/P/index.cfm>
- 3GPP2 TSG-N <http://3gpp2.org/Public_html/N/index.cfm>
The goal is to coordinate efforts with at least these groups as required.
While there is obvious synergy, given the end-of-life of the VPIM and
FAX work groups and the similar membership, the working group does not
expect to coordinate with these other groups.
Milestones (document completion)
==========
Feb 2003 - LEMONADE Requirements
May 2003 - Server to server notification protocol
Jul 2003 - IMAP4 extensions for VM playback
Sep 2003 - IMAP4 extensions for mobile devices
Jan 2004 - Translation to and from other messaging systems
Drafts to be used as input for working group
deliverables (grouped per milestone)
====================================
LEMONADE requirements
- draft-vaudreuil-um-issues-00.txt
- draft-burger-um-reqts-00.txt
- draft-wong-umcli-00.txt
Server to server notification protocol
- draft-shapira-snap-04.txt
IMAP4 extensions for VM playback
- draft-burger-imap-chanuse-00.txt
- draft-nerenberg-imap-channel-01.txt
IMAP4 extensions for mobile devices
- draft-neystadt-imap-status-counters-00.txt
- draft-shveidel-mediasize-00.txt
Translation to and from other messaging systems
- draft-vaudreuil-futuredelivery-00.txt
Guys, please review the updated IDR charter.
The changes reflect the WG priorities (the main
spec first), as well as some clarifications.
I attach a wdiff for easier review.
--
Alex
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Inter-Domain Routing Working Group is chartered to standardize
and promote the Border Gateway Protocol Version 4 (BGP-4) [RFC
1771] capable of supporting policy based routing for TCP/IP internets.
The objective is to promote the use of BGP-4 to support IP version
4 and IP version 6. The working group will continue to work on
improving the scalability of BGP.
The current tasks of the WG are limited to:
- Revise and clarify the base BGP4 document (RFC 1771). Note that
RFC 1771 no longer documents existing practice and one goal of the
update is document existing practice. Determine whether the
document can be advanced as full Standard or needs to recycle at
Proposed or Draft Standard.
- Submit updated base BGP4 MIB to accompany the revised base BGP4
document.
Once these tasks are finished (means WG consensus, WG Last Call,
AD Review, IETF Last Call, and IESG approval for publication), work
will progress on the following:
- Review and Evaluate Existing RFCs on AS Confederations and Route
Reflection. If changes are needed, create and advance revisions.
- Review and evaluate Multiprotocol BGP (RFC 2858) for advancement
as Draft Standard.
- Progress BGP Extended Communities along standards track.
- Extend BGP to support a 4-byte AS number, develop plan for
transitioning to usage of 4-byte AS numbers. Advance support for a
4-byte AS numbers along standards track.
- Produce BGP MIB v2 that includes support for AS Confederations,
Route Reflection, Communities, Multi-Protocol BGP, BGP Extended
Communities, support for 4-byte AS numbers.
- Progress along the IETF standards track a BGP-based mechanism
that allows a BGP speaker to send to its BGP peer a set of route
filters that the peer would use to constrain/filter its outbound
routing updates to the speaker. Currently defined in
draft-ietf-idr-route-filter-03.txt.
- Progress along standards track an Outbound Router Filter (ORF)
type for BGP, that can be used to perform aspath based route
filtering. The ORF-type will support aspath based route filtering
as well as regular expression based matching for address groups.
Currently defined in draft-ietf-idr-aspath-orf-00.txt.
- Progress a BGP Graceful Restart mechanism along standards track.
- Progress Subcodes for BGP Cease Notification Message along
standards track.
- Progress AS-wide Unique BGP Identifier for BGP-4 along standards
track.
- Progress Dynamic Capability for BGP-4 along standards track.
Tasks for this working group are limited to those listed above;
new items to be added to the charter must be approved by the IESG.
Goals and Milestones
DONE Submit BGP Capability Advertisement to the IESG
JAN 03 Submit BGP4 document to IESG.
JAN 03 Submit updated base BGP4 MIB to IESG.
JAN 03 Submit BGP Security Vulnerabilities Analysis to IESG
MAR 03 Submit BGP Graceful Restart to IESG
MAR 03 Submit Extended Communities draft to IESG.
MAR 03 Submit revised text on Multi-Protocol BGP (rfc2858bis) to
IESG
MAR 03 Submit BGP MIB v2 to IESG.
MAY 03 Submit 4-byte AS ID to IESG.
MAY 03 Submit Outbound Route Filter, Prefix and ASpath ORF draft to
IESG.
MAY 03 Submit Subcodes for BGP Cease Notification Message to IESG
MAY 03 Submit AS-wide Unique BGP Identifier for BGP-4 to IESG
MAY 03 Submit Dynamic Capability for BGP-4 to IESG