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Inputting mixed SC/TC (Re: [idn] A question...)
Dear James,
Adopting your word, please don't try to PAINT yourself as a daily Chinese
computer user. As I know, you did not use Chinese Windows system daily
nor input Chinese characters often in your dialy work. I'm afraid that an
unfamiliar or inexperienced Chinese-system user can not thoroughly realize
what troubles the proposed IDN solution will make to world-wide Chinese
Internet societies. Although we have discussed inputting and using SC/TC
characters in the end of Oct 2001, I still quite doubt whether you really
understand what I try to explain.
### Inputting mixed SC/TC Characters
In http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg04520.html, you said it's
difficult to type mixing TC and SC and we need to switch from TC IME
to SC IME repeatively. Followed by Xiang Deng from CNNIC in
http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg04521.html, he told you:
"No, I do can type TC AND SC in a very usual IME without swich."
Besides, in http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg04523.html, I also
told you:
"Most IMEs in Traditional Windows 2000 can support TC and SC
directly without switching, even they can let the user type in
Japanese characters without switching. It is not unusual for one IME
to support all, or as many as possible, Unicode characters if the system
supports Unicode. For examples, the phonetic imput method and the
Boshimy input method. The former is the default method in all Chinese
systems and almost every Chinese or Taiwanese who uses computers
knows how to use it easily. The later is widely used by many people
who want to have high Chinese input rate, especially for professional
users."
Two daily native Chinese Windows users have tried to tell you we do
be able to input mixed TC/SC by a single input method software (IME).
However, you still claimed in your response:
http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg04524.html
"On Windows, you install 2 IME, one for TC and the other for SC.
You toggle between these two while you key in."
Well, how were you so confident? To give you more feeling, in
http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg04545.html , I demostrated
two examples that use a single IME to input mixed SC/TC, and told you:
"So it is clear that we don't need to install TWO IMEs to
input mixed TC and SC in TC Windows 2000. The user also
does not need to toggle between TC and SC while input. It
is natural that one TC input method software aims to make
the user input as many Unicode characters (and as easy)
as possible. Indeed, almost every add-on TC input method
software can support far more HAN characters than those
defined in Unicode, since some other charsets define more
characters than Unicode. The market will drive the software
company to do so, becoming a Uni-input method software
and supporting as many HAN characters as possible."
Now, in http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg05781.html you still
claimed:
"By default, TC or SC will be output depending which IME you use. Of
course, you *could* manually scroll down the list to get the characters
or you could toggle the input method to do so."
Well, well, .... Fine. See:
http://www.iis.sinica.edu.tw/~wuch/idn/examples/mixinput.htm
It gives you three examples and respective window snapshots to prove
that one single IME can output TC and SC easily. I believe many IME
softwares have more functions for multi-lingual inputs than your
understanding. Indeed, IME developers also plan to support inputting
multi-lingual Unicode characters more conveniently in their new
versions. Next time you come to Taiwan, I can help you discuss IME
issues with the developers of top 3 IME softwares in Taiwan, in
Chinese conversation.
By the way, can you easily distinguish the displayed Chinese names in
Example 2 and Example 3: eight combinations for "Islam" in Example 2
and two combinations for "Ministry of the Interior" in Example 3?
If you do check the variants in Unicode AND display them under Chinese
Unicode systems such as Traditional Chinese Windows 2000, you can
find more similar-looking but easy-confusing SC/TC pairs.
### 3-month late or 30-year's pain?
I've been using Chinese computer systems for about twenty years. In
addition to input-method developers, Chinese software developers,
Internet application developers and IDN-related professionals and officers,
these months people from CDNC have also discussed Unicode and IDN
issues with many Chinese linguists, several of them having experiences in
Chinese/Han encoding for more than twenty years. Except for PunnyCode,
I can say none of them agree with passing current proposed IDN WG's
drafts for CDN hastily. It is just like that ALL Chinese participants in
IETF
IDN WG meetings, who use Chinese systems daily, did not agree with the
proposed IDN solution.
Things go worse due to that it's not easy for experienced native Chinese
users to explain the CDN issues to unfamiliar or inexperienced
Chinese-system users fluently in English. That's part of the reasons that
Unicode Consortium/WG2 needed to form IRG to discuss Han ideographs
and it's more easy for JET members (CJKT) to have concrete discussions
and consensus. Within IDN WG, it's clear that most IDN WG members
are unfamiliar or inexperienced Chinese-system users. It's said that they
are tired and time-stressed. Although they have tried very hard to solve
IDN issues, however, IETF IDN WG seem to stand like that their solution
is also best to CDN and be trying to pass the proposed IDN solution for
CDN, which does not have the consensus from CDNC and native
Chinese participants in IDN WG meetings. If IDN is really important to
the developement of Internet, I'm afraid that the process of passing current
IDN standards under the above condition would become a bad case and
symbol in the history of Internet.
To be responsible for world-wide and Chinese Internet societies, hope we
all move carefully and responsibly. That's my two-cent point. Hope we have
peaceful and justicial Internet World.
Happy Chinese New Year
Chun-Hsin Wu
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Seng/Personal" <jseng@pobox.org.sg>
To: <jw-lin@yahoo.com.tw>; <idn@ops.ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 12:23 PM
Subject: Re: [idn] A question...
> > It is not ture. I think, maybe you are not familiar how Chinese
> characters
> > are used in our daily work.
>
> Perhaps you are not be aware I am possibly a Chinese myself too and I
> use Chinese in my daily live, both traditional (in Malaysia) and
> simplified (Singapore). And I work with many Chinese linguists in the
> last 2 years and the many of them are not Chinese.
>
> > But the other 5 cases are often written
> > (not inputed), especially U+53F0, U+6E7E, U+5B66 are sometimes
> > preferrd because they are less-strokes.
>
> Thanks. Then we have no problem.
>
> > What you said are in a restricit environment, like Windows 98, on
> which
> > you can not input those characters on some limited IME. However,
> > Windows 2000 will change the user behavior.
>
> By default, TC or SC will be output depending which IME you use. Of
> course, you *could* manually scroll down the list to get the characters
> or you could toggle the input method to do so.
>
> The user behavior education about domain names should be that domain
> names are identifier, not names. They should enter into the computer
> exactly as they seen it or reference it.
>
> Anyhow, you are raising issues which have been debated in the list
> before, one which the wg is quite well aware of. So unless you have a
> TC/SC solution which you willing to contributed to the group, I consider
> this discussion closed.
>
> And if you do have a TC/SC solution, one which have not be considered by
> the group and UTC and IRG, I would definately love to hear your idea.
>
> -James Seng