Re: Inputting mixed SC/TC (Re: [idn] A question...)

["James Seng/Personal" <jseng@pobox.org.sg>]

Btw, do you realise that all W2K Traditional IME have a configuration
called "只顯示BIG5字集" (only show BIG5 characters) which will effectly
elimenate all the confusion you mention here in this mail?

Similar options are available for Simplified IME whereby you can select
between GB2312 and GBK.

-James Seng

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chun-Hsin Wu" <wuch@gate.sinica.edu.tw>
To: "James Seng/Personal" <jseng@pobox.org.sg>; <idn@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: <jw-lin@yahoo.com.tw>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 5:12 AM
Subject: Inputting mixed SC/TC (Re: [idn] A question...)


> Dear James,
>
> Adopting your word, please don't try to PAINT yourself as a daily
Chinese
> computer user. As I know, you did not use Chinese Windows system daily
> nor input Chinese characters often in your dialy work. I'm afraid that
an
> unfamiliar or inexperienced Chinese-system user can not thoroughly
realize
> what troubles the proposed IDN solution will make to world-wide
Chinese
> Internet societies. Although we have discussed inputting and using
SC/TC
> characters in the end of Oct 2001, I still quite doubt whether you
really
> understand what I try to explain.
>
> ### Inputting mixed SC/TC Characters
>
> In http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg04520.html, you said it's
> difficult to type mixing TC and SC and we need to switch from TC IME
> to SC IME repeatively. Followed by Xiang Deng from CNNIC in
> http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg04521.html, he told you:
>     "No, I do can type TC AND SC in a very usual IME without swich."
> Besides, in http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg04523.html, I also
> told you:
>     "Most IMEs in Traditional Windows 2000 can support TC and SC
>     directly without switching, even they can let the user type in
>     Japanese characters without switching.  It is not unusual for one
IME
>     to support all, or as many as possible, Unicode characters if the
system
>     supports Unicode.  For examples, the phonetic imput method and the
>     Boshimy input method. The former is the default method in all
Chinese
>     systems and almost every Chinese or Taiwanese who uses computers
>     knows how to use it easily. The later is widely used by many
people
>     who want to have high Chinese input rate, especially for
professional
>     users."
>
> Two daily native Chinese Windows users have tried to tell you we do
> be able to input mixed TC/SC by a single input method software (IME).
> However, you still claimed in your response:
> http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg04524.html
>     "On Windows, you install 2 IME, one for TC and the other for SC.
>     You toggle between these two while you key in."
> Well, how were you so confident? To give you more feeling, in
> http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg04545.html , I demostrated
> two examples that use a single IME to input mixed SC/TC, and told you:
>     "So it is clear that we don't need to install TWO IMEs to
>     input mixed TC and SC in TC Windows 2000. The user also
>     does not need to toggle between TC and SC while input. It
>     is natural that one TC input method software aims to make
>     the user input as many Unicode characters (and as easy)
>     as possible. Indeed, almost every add-on TC input method
>     software can support far more HAN characters than those
>     defined in Unicode, since some other charsets define more
>     characters than Unicode. The market will drive the software
>     company to do so, becoming a Uni-input method software
>     and supporting as many HAN characters as possible."
>
> Now, in http://www.imc.org/idn/mail-archive/msg05781.html you still
> claimed:
>     "By default, TC or SC will be output depending which IME you use.
Of
>     course, you *could* manually scroll down the list to get the
characters
>     or you could toggle the input method to do so."
> Well, well, .... Fine. See:
>     http://www.iis.sinica.edu.tw/~wuch/idn/examples/mixinput.htm
> It gives you three examples and respective window snapshots to prove
> that one single IME can output TC and SC easily. I believe many IME
> softwares have more functions  for multi-lingual inputs than your
> understanding. Indeed, IME developers also plan to support inputting
> multi-lingual Unicode characters more conveniently in their new
> versions. Next time you come to Taiwan, I can help you discuss IME
> issues with the developers of top 3 IME softwares in Taiwan, in
> Chinese conversation.
>
> By the way, can you easily distinguish the displayed Chinese names in
> Example 2 and Example 3: eight combinations for "Islam" in Example 2
> and two combinations for "Ministry of the Interior" in Example 3?
>
> If you do check the variants in Unicode AND display them under Chinese
> Unicode systems such as Traditional Chinese Windows 2000, you can
> find more similar-looking but easy-confusing SC/TC pairs.
>
> ### 3-month late or 30-year's pain?
>
> I've been using Chinese computer systems for about twenty years. In
> addition to input-method developers, Chinese software developers,
> Internet application developers and IDN-related professionals and
officers,
> these months people from CDNC have also discussed Unicode and IDN
> issues with many Chinese linguists, several of them having experiences
in
> Chinese/Han encoding for more than twenty years. Except for PunnyCode,
> I can say none of them agree with passing current proposed IDN WG's
> drafts for CDN hastily. It is just like that ALL Chinese participants
in
> IETF
> IDN WG meetings, who use Chinese systems daily, did not agree with the
> proposed IDN solution.
>
> Things go worse due to that it's not easy for experienced native
Chinese
> users to explain the CDN issues to unfamiliar or inexperienced
> Chinese-system users fluently in English. That's part of the reasons
that
> Unicode Consortium/WG2 needed to form IRG to discuss Han ideographs
> and it's more easy for JET members (CJKT) to have concrete discussions
> and consensus. Within IDN WG, it's clear that most IDN WG members
> are unfamiliar or inexperienced Chinese-system users.  It's said that
they
> are tired and time-stressed. Although they have tried very hard to
solve
> IDN issues, however, IETF IDN WG seem to stand like that their
solution
> is also best to CDN and be trying to pass the proposed IDN solution
for
> CDN, which does not  have the consensus from CDNC and native
> Chinese participants in IDN WG meetings. If IDN is really important to
> the developement of Internet, I'm afraid that the process of passing
current
> IDN standards under the above condition would become a bad case and
> symbol in the history of Internet.
>
> To be responsible for world-wide and Chinese Internet societies, hope
we
> all move carefully and responsibly. That's my two-cent point. Hope we
have
> peaceful and justicial Internet World.
>
> Happy Chinese New Year
>
> Chun-Hsin Wu
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Seng/Personal" <jseng@pobox.org.sg>
> To: <jw-lin@yahoo.com.tw>; <idn@ops.ietf.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 12:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [idn] A question...
>
>
> > > It is not ture. I think, maybe you are not familiar how Chinese
> > characters
> > > are used in our daily work.
> >
> > Perhaps you are not be aware I am possibly a Chinese myself too and
I
> > use Chinese in my daily live, both traditional (in Malaysia) and
> > simplified (Singapore).  And I work with many Chinese linguists in
the
> > last 2 years and the many of them are not Chinese.
> >
> > > But the other 5 cases are often written
> > > (not inputed), especially U+53F0, U+6E7E, U+5B66 are sometimes
> > > preferrd because they are less-strokes.
> >
> > Thanks. Then we have no problem.
> >
> > > What you said are in a restricit environment, like Windows 98, on
> > which
> > > you can not input those characters on some limited IME. However,
> > > Windows 2000 will change the user behavior.
> >
> > By default, TC or SC will be output depending which IME you use. Of
> > course, you *could* manually scroll down the list to get the
characters
> > or you could toggle the input method to do so.
> >
> > The user behavior education about domain names should be that domain
> > names are identifier, not names. They should enter into the computer
> > exactly as they seen it or reference it.
> >
> > Anyhow, you are raising issues which have been debated in the list
> > before, one which the wg is quite well aware of. So unless you have
a
> > TC/SC solution which you willing to contributed to the group, I
consider
> > this discussion closed.
> >
> > And if you do have a TC/SC solution, one which have not be
considered by
> > the group and UTC and IRG, I would definately love to hear your
idea.
> >
> > -James Seng
>
>
>