[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

FW: Nokia Patent discussion FW: [Dime] First results on Diameter vs. RadSec patent research:EP1147635



Hi all,
 
I was asked to forward this to the DiME, RADext and OPSA WG mailing lists.  
 
Thanks,
John

Dear Stefan,

I asked John to forward this message as I'm not a regular on the DIME list.  I'm responsible for handling IETF related IPR cases in Nokia.

As you suggested, Nokia believes EP1147635, and other members of the same patent family, are essential to practice RFC3588.

However, I do suggest that you, and other folks interested, contact your respective legal folks regarding the implication of the existence of the patent, in conjunction with our patent declaration.  I do not believe that Stefan's claim is correct:
Every implementation of the 
Diameter base protocol will use the patented technology and 
needs to either license it or will violate it. 

In order to help the group to understand our declaration, please allow me to provide a simplistic explanation.  As for the binding legal language, please see the declaration itself (cited correctly by Stefan in his original email):

Nokia agrees not to assert those claims in Nokia above 
mentioned patents that apply to the RFC3588 and are 
technically necessary to implement this IETF standard 
specification against any other party in respect of its 
implementation of the specification, provided that the party 
relying on this commitment does not assert its patents against Nokia.

Our licensing declaration is what is commonly known as a "non-assert" statement.  What it says is that if you don't come after Nokia with your patents, Nokia will not use its patents against your RFC 3588 implementation.
  
Non-assert statements like this are widely used in the IETF, as they are believed to provide sufficient defensive protection for the owner, while still allowing implementers and users to exercise the protected technology without a license and for free, as long as they behave similarly nice (i.e. not going after Nokia with their patents).  In that, non-asserts are believed to be compatible with most open source licenses.

Feel free to contact me in private if you have more questions.
 
Best regards,
Stephan Wenger
 
 -----Original Message-----
From: ext Stefan Winter [mailto:stefan.winter@restena.lu] 
Sent: 01 August, 2007 15:28
Subject: [Dime] First results on Diameter vs. RadSec patent 
research:EP1147635

Hello all,

(sorry for cross-posting, this may also be of interest for dime)

when presenting the RadSec draft in IETF69 Chicago, I 
mentioned the patent claims of Nokia concerning Diameter. As a 
reaction, some participants claimed that RadSec itself 
implements a subset of the Diameter features and may very well 
itself be subject to these patents. So I started an 
investigation in this respect.

I started the research myself by grabbing a copy of patent 
EP1147635 by Nokia, which is claiming to affect Diameter. My 
focus of the patent's examination was whether this patent 
might also affect RadSec.

The content of this patent is, in short, that packets on a 
network get tagged as "possible duplicate" on retransmission 
in order to make the endpoint aware that the received content 
may be a duplicate of a previous packet. It also provides a 
mechanism to correlate the multiple copies even when the 
packets took different paths through the network.

Diameter does exactly that, described in section 5.5.4 
"Failover and Failback Procedures" of RFC3588: a bit in the 
Diameter header, the "T" bit, is set whenever a Diameter 
packet needed to be retransmitted. Also, Diameter packets 
carry an end-to-end identifier that makes it possible to 
identify duplicates.

This means that at least from my point of view, Nokia's claim 
concerning Diameter is true. Every implementation of the 
Diameter base protocol will use the patented technology and 
needs to either license it or will violate it. 
(Note: I am not a lawyer. This is just my interpretation; 
consider my knowledge being "Slashdot-level").
From the wording in this section 5.5.4 and the explanation of 
the T bit in chapter 3, it seems that setting the T bit is 
mandatory on retransmissions, so adhering to the protocol 
specification leaves no room for circumventing the content of 
the patent (e.g., by keeping it 0 at all times).

Luckily, RadSec does not implement such a sophisticated 
duplicate packet detection algorithm. So, this particular 
patent appears not to be of any concern for implementors of RadSec.

I will continue investigating the bunch of other patents and 
patent applications relating to Diameter as soon as I get 
copies of them. For reference, here is Nokia's claim statement 
concerning Diameter (as submitted to the IETF IPR tracker):

----------

Title: Nokia's Statement About IPR Claimed in RFC 3588
Received: January 6, 2004

This is to advise the IETF that Nokia believes the Nokia
patents: EP1147635 and AU757984, and the related patent
applications: BRPI0007603-1, CA2360093, CN00804050.8, FI990102,
JP2000-595452 and US09/903863 may be relevant to Diameter Base 
Protocol RFC3588.

Nokia agrees not to assert those claims in Nokia above 
mentioned patents that apply to the RFC3588 and are 
technically necessary to implement this IETF standard 
specification against any other party in respect of its 
implementation of the specification, provided that the party 
relying on this commitment does not assert its patents against Nokia.

Regards,

Harri Honkasalo

Director of IPR, Standard Technology

Nokia Corporation

----------


Greetings,

Stefan Winter

--
Stefan WINTER

RESTENA Foundation - Réseau Téléinformatique de l'Education 
Nationale et de la Recherche R&D Engineer

6, rue Richard Coudenhove-Kalergi
L-1359 Luxembourg
email: stefan.winter@restena.lu     Tel.:     +352 424409-1 
http://www.restena.lu               Fax:      +352 422473

<signature.asc>
_______________________________________________
DiME mailing list