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Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments



References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com><EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com><30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com><BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com><9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com><B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com><C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com><20090326192455.dbcedfab.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261049210.25843@uplift. swm.pp.s e><D83105B2AC38794CB78ADA2959F2C44F02EA2594@S4DE9JSAACY.ost.t-com.de><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261752110.25843@uplift.swm.pp.se><20090328200557.16d30bd9.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><49CE6126.6080609@sneep.n! et><35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BEB0C@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se> <20090330201805.d06e859f.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d3 1340a.nosens e.org> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0DA1B731@crexc41p> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06D08DED@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com>
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X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Mar 2009 21:15:39.0459 (UTC) FILETIME=[AD13D930:01C9B17C]


On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:

Barbara,

What initial cable standards deployment are you talking about where
clients in the home in cable modems or hosts behind the modems could
talk directly to another cable modem in a neighboring home? For over 10

What she says is true but it was a long time ago, in my experience.  I
remember @home sending an advisory to its customers in the 90's advising
them to change Windows 95 settings so their neighbors would not
be able to view their shared folders.

Mark


years, in docsis networks since docsis 1.0, I don't see such behavior on
a routed CMTS - this thread is also focused on routed networks because
at the DSL first hop IPv6 router, we have a routed network. Also, what you have said below about security or privacy was something that I sent
already on 03/26.  This is what I had said.

"At this point I would like you all to see this text below that I and
Wes wrote in an expired draft of
draft-wbeebee-on-link-and-off-link-determination-01.txt.
[3.  Router Models

  The Redirect Clarifications section clarifies RFC 4861 [ND] host and
  router behavior for an aggregation router deployment.

  The Aggregation Router Deployment Model section presents a possible
  aggregation router deployment model for IPv6 and discusses its
  properties with respect to ND.  Aggregation routers can service more
  than 100,000 subscribers.  Due to scaling considerations, any NS for
  global address resolution from any host to any other host should not
  reach the aggregation router.

3.1.  Aggregation Router Deployment Model

  A property of routed aggregation networks is that hosts cannot
  directly communicate with each other even if they share the same
prefix. Physical connectivity between the aggregation router and the modems prevents hosts behind modems to communicate directly with each
  other.  Hosts send their traffic to aggregation router.  This design
  is motivated by scaling and security considerations.  If every host
  could receive all traffic from every other host, then the
  subscriber's privacy would be violated and the amount of bandwidth
available for each subscriber would be very small. That is why hosts
  communicate between each other through the aggregation router, which
  is also the IPv6 first-hop router.

For scaling reasons, any NS to resolve any address other than that of
  the default router should not reach the aggregation router.


                          +-----+
                          |     |
                          |Aggre+----(Rtr CPE)----Host1
           Core----WAN----+gator|
                          | Rtr |
                          |     +----(Br CPE)----(Cust Rtr)----Host2
                          +-----+

                                Figure 1.

In the figure above, the customer premises equipment (CPE) is managed
  by the ISP and is deployed behind an aggregation router that is an
  IPv6 first-hop router and also a DHCPv6 relay agent.  IPv6 CPEs are
  either IPv6 routers (Rtr CPE) or IPv6 bridges (Br CPE).  If the
  customer premises uses a bridge CPE, then a router (Cust Rtr) is
  needed.  All hosts reside behind a router CPE or a customer router.

  No NS to resolve any address other than that of the default router



Singh & Beebee Expires July 4, 2008 [Page 7]


Internet-Draft ND On-link Determination January 2008


  will reach the aggregation router from any device on the customer
  side of the aggregator.  CPEs do not communicate with each other in
  this deployment model since a CPE does not run any applications that
  need to communicate with other CPEs.  Hosts do communicate with each
  other, but every host is off-link to any other host on the
  aggregation router.]

Hemant


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Stark, Barbara
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:08 AM
To: Mark Smith; Alan Kavanagh
Cc: Alastair Johnson; Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de;
v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

My remembrance of why SPs aren't keen to localize routing is quite
different.
Originally, cable operators had neighbors all on the same Ethernet
network. Neighbors were able to discover each other's computers and
printers (this was before routers were common), and sometimes sniff each
other's traffic. This was considered a bad thing, from a customer
security and privacy standpoint. Telco providers decided that they did
not want to it this way, and effectively made Ethernet connections from
customers "point-to-point" to an element in the access network.

Today, the access network elements are able to detect a lot of malware
traffic (especially DDoS attacks), and disconnect customers that are
infected with malware that presents a security / privacy /
performance-impacting risk to others. Unfortunately, this is not an
infrequent occurrence. If customer traffic were somehow able to bypass
these network elements, it would open up neighbors to attacks by
infected neighbors. That would be a very bad thing.

Furthermore, in general, there just isn't that much neighbor-to- neighbor
communication, that would make the savings outweigh the cost of
implementation. The only neighbor my home trades a lot of traffic with
(my kids and their kids, gaming) is on a separate network, since we use
different service providers.

Lack of cost justification and security concerns are the reasons why SPs are unlikely to localize traffic within the access network, for general
consumers.
Barbara