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Re: Working group last call: draft-ietf-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-02




Dan,

This rev looks good. I think there is still one issues worth discussing. Specifically item 3 listed below:
> 3) For the behavior of ignoring the unknown message, RFC4204 doesn't
> describe how to handle the unknown message.

Well that seems to be an oversight in RFC4204.

> RFC3473 also doesn't discuss
> this issue.

Nor is it relevant as RFC3473 relates to RSVP and this draft is on LMP. BTW RSVP's relevant behavior is defined in RFC2205.

> But by default, we think it should be discarded silently.
> Any other suggestion?

So I think there's a substantive issue here. We certainly know from past experience that when an implementation receives unexpected/unspecified input unexpected and unpredictable (i.e., very bad) things can happen. I think you *at least* need a compatibility section that raises the issue of unknown message behavior not being specified in 4204, and that the document's defined mechanisms presume a certain non-standard behavior of existing/non-document supporting nodes.

Given the current definition of 4204, I really thing the only guaranteed backward compatible approach is to negotiate the usage of the newly defined messages. This can be done using a new CONFIG c-type. (BTW there's another 4204 issue in that the Nack narrative implies that multiple config objects may be present, but the BNF shows only one in the config and configNack messages. So you'll need to grapple with this issue too. )

If you feel so inclined, something that is also worthwhile (possibly even as an alternative) is to author an update to 4204 that specifies behavior for handling unknown messages and allowing multiple config messages. - This would be a worthwhile document no matter what you decide.

Lou

On 5/21/2009 11:51 PM, Dan Li wrote:
Lou,
Sorry, I didn't notice your comments in my previous mail.
1) We have accepted all your suggestions on [RFC2119] conformance issue,
especially for section 5 of this draft.
2) For retransmisstion issue, the following text is dropped:
 > . The ConfirmDataChannelStatus message SHOULD be resent, if the
 > ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack message is received or no response
 > message is received in the configured time by the SENDER.
3) For the behavior of ignoring the unknown message, RFC4204 doesn't
describe how to handle the unknown message. RFC3473 also doesn't discuss
this issue. But by default, we think it should be discarded silently.
Any other suggestion?
------
 > If the ConfirmDataChannelStatus message is not recognized by the
 > RECEIVER, the RECEIVER ignores this message, and will not send out an
 > acknowledgment message to the SENDER.

Please provide a reference to where this behavior is define, e.g. "Per
[RFCxyz]".
------
Please review the attached draft of the latest version.
Regards,
Dan

    ----- Original Message -----
    *From:* Lou Berger <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
    *To:* Dan Li <mailto:danli@huawei.com>
    *Cc:* Deborah A. Brungard <mailto:dbrungard@att.com> ;
    ccamp@ops.ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ops.ietf.org> ; Diego Caviglia
    (GA/ERI) <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com> ; MEURIC Julien
    RD-CORE-LAN <mailto:julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> ; Bardalai,
    Snigdho <mailto:Snigdho.Bardalai@us.fujitsu.com> ;
    zhangfatai@huawei.com <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com> ; Xu Huiying
    <mailto:xuhuiying@huawei.com>
    *Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2009 11:38 PM
    *Subject:* Re: Working group last call:
    draft-ietf-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-02

    Dan,
    No problem. Can you address the comments in my message included below?
    I've also included a some issues that are not resolved in the latest
    document at the end of the mail. If you can address these too that
    would be great.

    Lou

    On 5/19/2009 8:14 PM, Dan Li wrote:
     > Lou,
     > Sorry, I attached the wrong version. Here is the latest one.
     > Thanks,
     > Dan
     >
     > ----- Original Message -----
     > *From:* Lou Berger <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
     > *To:* Dan Li <mailto:danli@huawei.com>
     > *Cc:* Deborah A. Brungard <mailto:dbrungard@att.com> ;
     > ccamp@ops.ietf.org <mailto:ccamp@ops.ietf.org>
    <mailto:ccamp@ops.ietf.org> ; Diego Caviglia
     > (GA/ERI) <mailto:diego.caviglia@ericsson.com> ; MEURIC Julien
     > RD-CORE-LAN <mailto:julien.meuric@orange-ftgroup.com> ; Bardalai,
     > Snigdho <mailto:Snigdho.Bardalai@us.fujitsu.com> ;
     > zhangfatai@huawei.com <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com>
    <mailto:zhangfatai@huawei.com> ; Xu Huiying
     > <mailto:xuhuiying@huawei.com>
     > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:23 PM
     > *Subject:* Re: Working group last call:
     > draft-ietf-ccamp-confirm-data-channel-status-02
     >
     > Dan,
     > It looks like the rev attached to your email was an older version,
     > i.e., it doesn't have all the updates discussed in this and earlier
     > e-mails. Do you have an more current rev?
     >
     > I'll wait to comment on the attachment until you have a fully updated
     > rev so we don't re-discuss closed topics.
     >
     > On 5/18/2009 10:50 PM, Dan Li wrote:
     > > Hi all,
     > > Issues from previous email exchange are listed below:
     > > 1) Soft State - combined with the suggestions from Lou and Julien:
     > >
     > > In [RFC2205] and [RFC3209], a soft state mechanism was defined to
     > > prevent state discrepancies between LSRs.
     >
     > I suggest dropping the following clause:
     >
     > > With RSVP-TE uses moving to "firm states",
     > (end drop)
     >
     > > RSVP-TE restart processes ([RFC3473], [RFC5063])
     > > have been defined: adjacent LSRs may resynchronize their control
     > > plane state to reinstate information about LSPs that have persisted
     > > in the data plane. Both mechanisms aim at keeping state consistency
     > > among nodes and allow LSRs to detect mismatched data plane states.
     > > The data plane handling of such mismatched state can be treated
    as a
     > > local policy decision. Some deployments may decide to automatically
     > > clean up the data plane state so it matches the control plane
    state,
     > > but others may choose to raise an alert to the management plane and
     > > leave the data plane untouched just in case it is in use.
     > >
     > > 2) Section 2.3 - the last sentence caused the confusion.
     > > Since the scenario described in section 2.3 is not very
    typical, and
     > > keeps causing confusion, so this section is removed.
     > > 3) Section 4.3 - use RFC2119 language for any required protocol
     > behavior.
     > >
     > >
     > > 4.3. Message Construction
     > >
     > > Data_Link Class is included in ConfirmDataChannelStatus and
     > > ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck messages, which is defined in section
     > 13.12
     > > in [RFC4204].
     > >
     > > The status of the TE link end SHOULD be carried by the Data Channel
     > > Status subobject which is defined in section 4.2 of this
     > document. The
     > > new subobject SHOULD be part of Data_Link Class.
     > >
     >
     > Why SHOULD vs MUST?
     >
     > > In the case of SDH/SONET, DATA Channel ID in the new subobject
     > SHOULD be
     > > used to identify each timeslot of the data link.
     > >
     > > 4) At the end of section 5 - take the proposed text from Lou:
     > > ConfirmDataChannelStatus SHOULD be sent using LMP [RFC4204]
    reliable
     > > transmission mechanisms. If after the retry limit is reached, a
     > > ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck message or a
    ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack
     > > message is not received by the SENDER, the SENDER SHOULD
     > terminate the
     > > data channel confirmation procedure.
     > > Please let us know if you have more comments.
     >
     > Once we have the revision with all discussed updates I'll let you
    know
     > if I think anything got missed/dropped.
     >
     > Thanks,
     > Lou
     >
     > > Thanks,
     > > Dan
     >

    additional comments on -04 rev:


    Section 5 is still fairly weak on it usage of [RFC2119] conformance
    language. I've made some suggestions below. Feel free to change the
    directives listed below to whichever
    key word you feel is appropriate.

     > 5. Procedures
     >
     > The data channel status confirmation related LMP messages are sent

    I think you mean "MAY be" rather than "are".

     > between adjacent nodes periodically or driven by some events to
     > confirm the channel status for the data links.

    Is this timer triggered? If so, please state so. Is the sending of
    ConfirmDataChannelStatus messages purely a local policy
    matter/decision? If so, please state so. If the trigger is something
    else, please say so.

     > The procedure is
     > described below:
     >
     > . The SENDER constructs a ConfirmDataChannelStatus message which
     > contains one or more DATA_LINK objects. DATA_LINK object is

    replace "contains" with "MUST contain".

     > defined in [RFC4204]. Each DATA_LINK object contains one or more

    replace "contains" with "MUST contain".

     > Data Channel Status subobject. The Data Channel ID field in the

    replace "subobject" with "subobjects".

     > Data Channel Status subobject indicates which data channel needs

    replace "indicates" with "MUST indicate"

     > to be confirmed, and reports the data channel status at the
    SENDER.

    replace "reports" with "MUST report"

     > The ConfirmDataChannelStatus message is sent to the RECEIVER.
     >
     > . The RECEIVER extracts the data channel statuses from the

    replace "extracts" with "MUST extract"

     > ConfirmDataChannelStatus message, and compares these with its data

    replace "compares" with "SHOULD compare "

     > channel statuses for the reported data channels. If a data channel
     > status mismatch is found, the mismatch result SHOULD be reported
     > to the management plane for further action. The RECEIVER also
     > sends the ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck message which carries all

    replace "sends" with "SHOULD send "
    replace "carries" with "MUST carry"

     > the local end statuses of the requested data channels to the
     > SENDER.
     >
     > . If the RECEIVER is not able to support or to begin the
     > confirmation procedure, the ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack message
     > MUST be responded with the ERROR_CODE which indicates the reason
     > of rejection.
     >
     > . The SENDER receives the response ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck

    Insert "When" before "the SENDER".

     > message, and compares the received data channel statuses at the

    replace "compares" with "MUST compare"

     > remote end with the data channel statuses at the local end. If a
     > data channel status mismatch is found, the mismatch result SHOULD
     > be reported to the management plane for further action.
     >

    Retransmission is now distributed over two places in this section.
    Either combine or drop the following:

     > . The ConfirmDataChannelStatus message SHOULD be resent, if the
     > ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack message is received or no response
     > message is received in the configured time by the SENDER.
    (end drop)

     >
     > The data channel status mismatch issue identified by LMP may be
     > automatically resolved by RSVP restart. For example, the restarting
     > node may also have damaged its data plane. This leaves the data
     > channels mismatched. But RSVP restart will re-install the data plane
     > state in the restarting node. The issue may also be resolved via RSVP
     > soft state timeout.
     >
     > If the ConfirmDataChannelStatus message is not recognized by the
     > RECEIVER, the RECEIVER ignores this message, and will not send out an
     > acknowledgment message to the SENDER.

    Please provide a reference to where this behavior is define, e.g. "Per
    [RFCxyz]".

     >
     > Due to message loss problem, the SENDER may not be able to receive
     > the acknowledgment message.
     >

    The following is the second part of Retransmission in this section. As
    mentioned above, either combine or drop previous text.

     > ConfirmDataChannelStatus SHOULD be sent using LMP [RFC4204] reliable
     > transmission mechanisms. If after the retry limit is reached, a
     > ConfirmDataChannelStatusAck message or a ConfirmDataChannelStatusNack
     > message is not received by the SENDER, the SENDER SHOULD terminate
     > the data channel confirmation procedure.


    That's it,
    Lou